Michael Gunn — Direct/Cross (Recall)

MICHAEL GUNN: Sure. It's Michael Gunn, last name is spelled G-u-n-n.

MICHAEL GUNN: Good morning.

MICHAEL GUNN: From Columbia.

MICHAEL GUNN: Nope, grew up in Conway, South Carolina.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: I work for Forge Consulting.

MICHAEL GUNN: Forge Consulting, we are a settlement planning firm based primarily in Atlanta. I run the Columbia or South Carolina office. And we work with people, plaintiffs and plaintiffs' attorneys, to help them really try to take the settlements that have been recovered for them and tried to make them -- make these settlement last a long time. These people normally have been in -- catastrophic injuries or a wrongful death of a loved one.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, and that's the goal.

MICHAEL GUNN: I'm one of principals of Forge Consulting. We started in 2003. I've been there since 2005.

MICHAEL GUNN: I would be a principal and settlement consultant.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, I do.

MICHAEL GUNN: Sure, kind of a primer on it. Essentially a structured settlement is when -- it's only available to those who have been -- first of all to those who have been injured or involved in a wrongful death or a workers' compensation. It's really a method for them to try and save money, and what I mean by that is, is when they get the settlement, they have an opportunity to put some of that money into almost like an annuity, and that annuity would pay them over time much like a paycheck because a lot of these folks are -- lost their jobs, they've lost a loved one, or they have bills to pay. And so by doing that, it allows them to receive that money, but not only do they receive the funds, they do receive them tax free from the federal government.

MICHAEL GUNN: Totally tax free with interest.

MICHAEL GUNN: Sure. Well, generally speaking the annuities are funded by the insurance company that's paying the claim or the defendant themselves. That's generally speaking.

MICHAEL GUNN: The only way it would go to Forge Consulting is if the check was made payable to that insurance company, and then we would forward the check on to that insurance company.

MICHAEL GUNN: We would be a mail carrier. We would just be a mail carrier, correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: No problem, yeah.

MICHAEL GUNN: That's correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: Generally speaking, yes.

MICHAEL GUNN: That is correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: They can be.

MICHAEL GUNN: It's a very similar process. It's -- and a similar outcome. The difference is the attorneys would be deferring it, but when they receive the funds they would have to pay the tax at that time, but it is a way to defer the taxes like that, but it's the same scenario. The money would have to come from the defendant and/or its insurance carrier, and there would also have to be language included in the settlement documents, et cetera.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir. That would be constructive receipt and the IRS would consider that taxable income.

MICHAEL GUNN: Well, if they received the money, then the IRS is going to consider that taxable at the time it hits their account and, therefore, undoing that is going to be quite a bit of a problem.

MICHAEL GUNN: That is correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: That is correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: That is correct, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: That's the goal.

MICHAEL GUNN: I am.

MICHAEL GUNN: I do.

MICHAEL GUNN: Wearing a checked shirt and a blue jacket it appears.

MICHAEL GUNN: Probably twenty years ago, twenty, give or take a few years ago, twenty years ago, probably at a convention or a continuing education seminar since our primary market are plaintiffs' attorneys.

MICHAEL GUNN: Very jovial, friendly, never met a stranger, just a, you know, generally nice guy.

MICHAEL GUNN: I did. As -- generally speaking as we get to know our clients, you know, a lot of times friendships can get born out of that and you get more comfortable dealing with them, and so, yes, I worked with his firm a great deal. I did a lot of work with his firm. I probably -- actively probably would work -- worked probably five cases with Mr. Murdaugh.

MICHAEL GUNN: If you compare it to his partners, relatively few.

MICHAEL GUNN: That's correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: Sure. At one time he was the president of the Associations for Justice, which is a voluntary organization of plaintiffs' attorneys. And so I would -- we would be very closely together at trial lawyer events and things of that nature, CLEs.

MICHAEL GUNN: SCAJ.

MICHAEL GUNN: Again, usually these would be at events. It was never really a one-off; it was usually events. Golf, dinner, lunch, things like that. Just, you know, things that you would do -- things that you would do when you're at a -- Hilton Head.

MICHAEL GUNN: I would probably say -- I would put the over/under around fifteen.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yeah.

MICHAEL GUNN: Not every year. We would see each other, but dinner was probably few and far between.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: It would be business related.

MICHAEL GUNN: I never went with him. I may have seen him there but never went with him, no.

MICHAEL GUNN: Quite a few depending on the season.

MICHAEL GUNN: Absolutely not.

MICHAEL GUNN: Absolutely not.

MICHAEL GUNN: Absolutely not.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: Well, it would be returned to the person that sent it to us with an explanation as to why we could not take it.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, we would not take it.

MICHAEL GUNN: Generally speaking we had those conversations with attorneys. And I do remember he inquired about it, kind of went through what you would need to do, how you would need to do it, kind of the process in which it was done, so yes.

MICHAEL GUNN: It's the same canned elevator speech I give to everyone. That's how -- just the mechanics of how it works.

MICHAEL GUNN: I don't recall if there was a specific case. I do remember there was -- there was a case where we sent some options over one time and nothing ever came to fruition. It was just here is what you can do.

MICHAEL GUNN: I do recall the name Deon Martin.

MICHAEL GUNN: It was. What I recall about that case is, is that I got a signed option from plaintiff's counsel signed by Mr. Deon Martin, or I'm assuming Mr. Martin, saying he wanted to set aside X amount of dollars -- I'm not really sure exactly what that amount was -- and he wanted to do it -- do -- to an annuity. And so annuities, like anything, it kind of -- it's kind based off of the stock market and whatnot, so they can kind of go up and down, so there's a time window in which you are able to purchase that. If not, the rate may go up, the rate may go down. And so I consistently sent emails to Mr. Murdaugh, as well as his paralegal, Annette Griswold. I would say at least four, maybe five emails saying hey, this is going to expire. This is going to expire if you don't fund this now. And after getting no response after multiple weeks, we just closed our file.

MICHAEL GUNN: We opened a file for every case, yes.

MICHAEL GUNN: Well, part it is, is so that we can remember if the attorney calls us and says hey, I've a case I'm about to start working on, or we've got it -- and they don't give us any information because they might be in the car, we can say okay, this is the John Smith case, and I've got that tied to an attorney, and so that's how we do that.

MICHAEL GUNN: That is correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: I always asking for a -- I always ask for a name.

MICHAEL GUNN: I ask for a great deal of information, but often times that takes a little while to get, but the name is what I need first.

MICHAEL GUNN: I'm aware.

MICHAEL GUNN: I'm aware.

MICHAEL GUNN: We had general conversations, generic conversations, but we never had any in-depth conversations.

MICHAEL GUNN: It was this is what you can do and this is what you can't do.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: I do.

MICHAEL GUNN: Sure. Mr. Cope called me, asked me if he could trust me -- well, asked if he could trust my office as much as he trusted me, let me rephrase that, and said I would like to give you a name of some cases, and could you tell me what y'all have done for those clients. He gave me probably ten to twelve names. I remember I was standing in my driveway, so I'm furiously writing down these names, hoping I could read my own handwriting. And I got back with Mr. Cope and told him I didn't have a file open on any of these people.

MICHAEL GUNN: Not a one.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: They did. The next day he called me again, gave me another list of names. Went through that list. The only name that stood out was the Deon Martin that I referenced earlier.

MICHAEL GUNN: They asked me if we banked at Bank of America, and I told them we had not for the last four years.

MICHAEL GUNN: It was four to five years, somewhere in that range.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, I am.

MICHAEL GUNN: Probably early morning on June 8th, probably 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning, I got a couple of phone calls -- coupled of missed phone calls.

MICHAEL GUNN: Other than being stunned about it all, I let my wife know. Called a few other people. I let my business partners know.

MICHAEL GUNN: I did reach out to one or two of his law partners. Just expressed my condolences and, you know, obviously asked. I hoped it wasn't true, but that was confirmed. And then I waited a day and reached out to Mr. Murdaugh and just let him know we were thinking of him. Didn't have the words for what to say.

MICHAEL GUNN: I had.

MICHAEL GUNN: I didn't know Paul very well; I knew of him but I didn't know him very well.

MICHAEL GUNN: I knew Maggie, you know, pretty well. She would often times -- I believe when Buster was in school in Columbia, she would text me and ask me where he could get his hair cut and where he could get his pants hemmed and things like that. I was kind of like her local Google. So, you know -- but it was funny because I would always respond to her.

MICHAEL GUNN: Absolutely.

MICHAEL GUNN: I did.

MICHAEL GUNN: I did.

MICHAEL GUNN: Not at the funeral, but after.

MICHAEL GUNN: I did.

MICHAEL GUNN: He told me how much Maggie had loved me and my wife and our family.

MICHAEL GUNN: I saw him in Hilton Head in August. That was the only -- when I saw him.

MICHAEL GUNN: At the SCAJ conference in Hilton Head Island, the annual convention that all attorneys and vendors and whatnot attend.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, that's correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: His brother John Marvin, was with him primarily, but others were around: his law firm, members of the firm.

MICHAEL GUNN: We hung out a little bit or said -- you know, exchanged pleasantries, hugs, you know. Still, you know, couldn't believe what had happened. And we did go to dinner. I went to dinner with him, his brother, and the majority -- I don't want to count him off of his law firm - - on, I believe, it was Saturday evening.

MICHAEL GUNN: We do have two other companies that are under the Forge umbrella. One at is Advocacy Trust, which is a trust company, and the other one is Advocacy Wealth Management, which manages just, you know -- it's a federal and SEC related wealth management firm.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir, we do not.

MICHAEL GUNN: Absolutely not.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir, it is not.

MICHAEL GUNN: No, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: Good afternoon.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: Did some governmental affairs lobbying work for them, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: As an employee and as a contract.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, he was.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir. I was employed at the time, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: That's correct, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: They would meet in Columbia probably twice a year. They normally met at the convention spots or the CLE spots, and then one was always by telephone, but usually the president was -- even the telephone call, the president would come to Columbia.

MICHAEL GUNN: Sometimes, yes. I don't know if it was specifically for that reason -- for the SCAJ, but I do remember Maggie spending the night in Columbia, yes.

MICHAEL GUNN: Generally speaking, most of the time when I would see him it would be because of that, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: They did.

MICHAEL GUNN: Three feet of snow, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: We did.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yeah, and all of the other guests, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: I think so. I mean, we still didn't really hang out much after the wedding other than professional settings, and that could have been just because of the distance between the towns, but yeah, we would keep in touch, no doubt.

MICHAEL GUNN: I still do, too.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, that's correct.

MICHAEL GUNN: Marriott now.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: Very much.

MICHAEL GUNN: Every time.

MICHAEL GUNN: I did.

MICHAEL GUNN: By all accounts, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, I did.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: He was a broken man; you could tell he was very upset. He was -- yeah, he was very upset.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir, I did.

MICHAEL GUNN: Yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: I believe that's correct, yes, sir.

MICHAEL GUNN: He's not.

MICHAEL GUNN: I had not seen him before, no, at the convention, no.

MICHAEL GUNN: I believe so, yes.

MICHAEL GUNN: I think so, yes, sir.